Interview with Hugh Wanless

Hugh Wanless represents a coalition of churches and groups of friends who are raising funds to help bring four families of Afghan refugees to Canada. He talks about how the group has the skill and the experience to be successful, having integrated several Syrian refugees into the community in recent years.

Watch: https://youtu.be/mxjuPI8LrO8

Unedited transcript:

Jim Allan: With the crisis in Ukraine, the issue of refugees is once again in the news. A person who knows a thing or two about refugees coming to Canada is Oakville resident Hugh Wanless. Welcome Hugh and thanks for coming.

Hugh Wanless: Thank you Jim, thanks for the opportunity.

Jim Allan: So you may remember the story of Syrian refugees being taken in and sponsored by a few families in Oakville. That's where I want to start today. So how and when did you first become aware of the refugee crisis in Syria?

Hugh Wanless: Just through the, like most people did, through the disturbing headlines and the TV programs, the news, just brings it to the top of mind. At Maple Grove we had supported refugees for quite a long time, back to the Vietnamese boat people.

Jim Allan: So when you say Maple Grove, you mean Maple Grove United Church in Oakville?

Hugh Wanless: Yes, and that's how the sponsorships work. We work through the United Church of Canada. We're working with a couple of other churches, one other United Church and Knox Presbyterian Church. So we've got Muns United, which is sixth line here in Oakville, and Knox, which is Presbyterian Church, which is downtown Oakville.

Jim Allan: So as I understand it, the civil war broke out in 2011, this is just information I googled I suppose, and by the end of 2016 there were 12 million displaced Syrians worldwide. Tell me about some of the hurdles these families have to jump over, go around, you know those early days when they come back.

Hugh Wanless: Well they need to be defined as actual refugees, first of all to fall under the United Nations program. And to be a refugee means that you are in fear of your life if you were to return to your country of where you were living, your country of birth or country of citizenship. So the next big hurdle is fundraising, because the way the program works is this is all privately raised money, there's no government money involved, and you're responsible as the applicant submitter or the sponsor to take care of that family for their first year here in Canada. So we estimate it's about $40,000 a family, rough and ready. Oakville is a prosperous area, but it's an expensive area as well. So housing tends to be the number one issue as far as getting people in, we try to find accommodation for them.

Jim Allan: So it would be a separate dwelling, would they live in your house for a while?

Hugh Wanless: No, it's typically a separate room. You're trying to get them something? Yeah, and it's tough to time because the apartment rentals are tight and you don't really know until the last minute when they're coming. So there's a lot of work done at that time to get accommodation lined up.

Jim Allan: But culturally they have some obstacles ahead of them when they arrive because of language, things like just banking, housing being the main hurdle I suppose.

Hugh Wanless: Yeah, and that's how the program is set up. So we work with the United Church's refugee program, the Immigration and Citizenship Canada. There's groups here in Oakville that provide a lot of that specific understanding and help as far as English as a second language. Some of the cultural points that will help them as well. So there's a lot of people out there that can help. And then what we do as the group that's going to sponsor them, we assign tasks if you want to think of it that way. It's as simple as driving somebody to doctor's appointments, learning how to go into the bank to set up a bank account. Things along those lines, getting signed up for children's tax credit for example. So a lot of steps to do, but again if it's not your first time doing it, you kind of know those steps and work your way through them. Just to tie up the Syrian part of the story, it's six years in now I guess. It's a real success story. They've been here long enough to actually settle and start businesses.

Jim Allan:  I think one family that was mentioned in the paper is one of the children is now at U of T on a scholarship and that sort of thing. Is it fair to call it a success, the Syrian program? How do you measure success I guess?

Hugh Wanless: Well, when you come as a refugee, you immediately become a landed immigrant. And then after a five-year period, you have the ability to become a citizen. And it so happens that the first Syrian family that we brought over have just gone through that process of becoming citizens in Canada. That's kind of a heartwarming feeling to that whole process.

Jim Allan: So this is about 2016, right?

Hugh Wanless: Yes, I think so maybe 2016, 2017 by the time the families arrived here would do the math. You have to be careful not to look at it too much in sort of the Western civilization view if you like. Because it's a different culture. And while they acclimatize the best they can to Canada, there's some basic differences in the way that different communities operate. So what we do find is some of the older generation don't find it as easy to get work. They may have had a, and I think this is common in immigration, let alone refugees that are immigrating. But they may have had a good position in a job where they were from. They came over here, their qualifications aren't recognized. They might end up being Uber drivers or something that's much beneath what their traditional work had been. A lot of their culture seem to focus too on the children support the seniors. So unlike Canada where kids grow up, leave home, and we're over for Christmas dinner or whatever, their families tend to congregate and stay together. And then over time the middle-aged individuals look after the seniors. So in some of the cases the seniors aren't working, but the families are taking care of themselves. Probably the success level you're going to see is the university and high school level. And younger kids as well because they pick up the language much easier. They acclimatize through going to school, and so that tends to work well.

Jim Allan: So you'd mention the U of T scholarship.

Hugh Wanless: There's another one, I think a couple of the university children went to Sheridan and have graduated since and have good jobs. So that's very heartwarming to see them turn their lives around.

Jim Allan: Now lately more refugees, this time from Afghanistan. So explain the Afghanistan situation if you can.

Hugh Wanless: Okay, well prior even to the Taliban taking over the government, the Taliban was very active in Afghanistan basically in a, I guess you'd call it an undeclared war. And so any Afghanis that were supportive of non-Taliban practices I guess, women's issues, children, you know, female children in school, LGBTQ individuals, journalists and members of ethnic minorities were specifically looked upon by the Taliban as people that weren't, that were not doing things right and the Taliban would act accordingly. They would, one of the families that were sponsoring, the family was on a bus. The bus, and this is prior to the Taliban actually taking control of the government, but the Taliban stopped the bus, went on the bus, took either all the men or at least some of the men off the bus. And they have not been heard of since. So one of the families that we're bringing over is a wife and three teenage girls. And they to date don't know the outcome of that and whether their father or husband is living or not.

Jim Allan: So you know, these are really, you know, how more serious can I get than losing a spouse?

Hugh Wanless: Yeah, yeah. So that's a concern. We did, we have brought some Afghan families here prior to the most recent turmoil in the government. And when you submit a refugee claim, you need to, as I mentioned, statewide, it's not safe for you to go back to Afghanistan. One story that comes to mind is the family had drivers taking their children to school because it wasn't the safest area. And the children were late in getting to the car and it ended up there was a bomb in the car and it blew up. And I don't remember, I should, but I don't, I think the driver was not in the car at the time. But, you know, something, a regular routine that we consider of going to school could be a life and death situation there. So the stories are all very sad and it's just heartwarming too. That family, as I said, came over in the depths of COVID when all the restrictions were on. They needed to stay in their home through the two-week period that you couldn't be outside. And there was a $750,000 fine if they had gone out, so we paid much attention to that. But since then, one of the individuals had a skill of working with rugs. And he joined a company in Toronto and then since then, I believe, has gone out on his own working with rugs. There's two other Afghan families that are currently in Turkey that have been approved. The bunnies are all set aside and we're waiting on the government to finalize bringing them here. They've probably been waiting, I'd say, 18 months to two years, which is a lot longer than it normally takes.

Jim Allan: So they wait in refugee camps?

Hugh Wanless: I'm not sure if they're in a camp, but they're outside of Afghanistan and they're probably in... You can't work, although some of them might be working cash out of the table. So it's not a good situation. It's supposed to be a transition to be able to come here, but the process takes a long time. With COVID, the government was impacted on their ability to do things as efficiently as well.

Jim Allan: So you said $40,000 per family for the first year. What does that cover?

Hugh Wanless: Well, all their living expenses, and as I said, apartment rent, or we assume an apartment, but rent is probably a big component of that. You know, it goes down to bus passes, transit, clothing. We do work with a number of agencies. Safety Net comes to mind where they've been helpful in providing some furnishings for the homes. And there's other organizations that help out as well. But it's whatever it costs. If you think of your own family budget, whatever it costs to live here for a year.

Jim Allan: So it's the rent, the heat, everything?

Hugh Wanless: Yes, cell phones, yeah. And they're not living in a lap of luxury. It's typically they're in maybe a two-bedroom apartment. And whether they get a car or not is really not in the budget, but sometimes we can find a way to get them a car if they have to drive distances. But we try to locate them around the Kerr Street community area, because there's lots of resources there that they can use, and it's within walking distance.

Jim Allan:  I mean, it's so easy just not to get involved in something like this, right? So why do you do it? Why did you get involved?

Hugh Wanless: Well, I think it's a good question, Jim, and I've asked that before. It's just you have the capacity for kindness, and you have the ability to do things. It's just, how do I go about doing that? You know, it's not just church people. It's outside of that broader community. There's always a lot of interest, a lot of angst when you see those headlines. So it's just taking that next step to decide, well, I can actually do something. And so the church has a long history of doing that. We've helped out in other situations beyond just refugees. We help a lot with Kerr Street Mission that helps less advantaged families here right in Oakville through a program called Neighbor Care Network. And a church helps out with that as well. So it's not just refugees. It's people in this area as well. But if you're sitting in your living room watching your big screen TV, and I think we can all recall back to Syria the picture of the father carrying his deceased son in his arms out of the sea he had died trying to get into it, I believe it was into Greece. No, they're heart-wrenching. And so what we found is a lot of people want to help, but they just don't know how to go about doing it. In our searching for partners to help us with the Afghans, we did talk to a number of individual people's churches and people in the community that approached us. And it's interesting, so a little bit of history. One of the families that approached us, the wife came over as a child, and she was a part of the Vietnamese refugees at that time. So that's going back over 20 years. They landed in the Maritimes, were supported by a Catholic church. Fast forward, they're now in Oakville. That family helped out with a Syrian family as well. And when they read about what Maple Grove and the other churches were doing, they reached out to us. They gave a donation, and it was $1,979, I believe, and that's because that's the year that she came to Canada. Another group that approached us is basically a Facebook group of a number of neighbours here in Oakville. And they worked with a Syrian refugee family as well through a different church. And they approached us when they saw what we were doing, and they've stepped up big time both from a financial contribution as well as agreeing to sponsor a family and do all the mechanics when the people actually come here. You're responsible for them for a year. And people can help by writing a check or going online or making a donation. As well, we'll be looking down the line, because we don't know exactly when the families arrive, but probably for some furnishings or clothing, or down to those specific tasks of driving people to medical appointments, things along those lines. And we'll keep record of that, and when that time's appropriate, we can get back to people and let them know kind of what step we're at.

Jim Allan: That information would be on the church website.

Hugh Wanless: Yeah. Or with me, it would just be outreach.mguc.gmail.com. So outreach, mguc.gmail.com.

Jim Allan: Okay. Now, there's always a new crisis. Has there been any conversation about refugees from Ukraine? I mean, they're taking over the headlines, right? Is that good or bad for your efforts with Afghani refugees?

Hugh Wanless: Yeah. Well, I guess a couple of thoughts on that. It keeps the ideas of refugees top of mind with people. The challenge in this day of 24-hour news and all the social media and all that is that it does get, you know, important causes do get pushed aside as other issues come up. Matthew's getting two games for a penalty in the hockey. So it helps in that refugees are still up front.

Jim Allan: The Ukrainian cause is tragic as well.

Hugh Wanless: You know, I don't have that much knowledge about it, but it seems like something that's unnecessary or certainly provoked by Russia. We, the Maple Grove United Church is supporting the Ukraine causes, but more by directing people to the United Church's website. And they have a big program that supports, that's doing fundraising. So people can still donate to Maple Grove United Church, and we would funnel that money through to the United Church. But my thoughts on it are there's a large Ukrainian community in Canada to start with. I think we heard it's the largest outside of Ukraine and Russia, and they're a warm community. They are in a position where they're likely looking at helping out where they can. I believe the program for the Ukrainians coming to Canada is different than a refugee program. They're coming over under a different program, and it's more, I believe, a short-term, have them come here for two or three years, and then they're looking to return to Ukraine if conditions allow. So it wouldn't be under the program that we're most familiar with, which is as actual refugees. So for a couple of reasons we've decided to help people if they're looking for a way to support them by directing them more towards the United Church's program, and acknowledge that it certainly is a concern. But we're trying to keep the Afghan story in people's minds, so an opportunity to speak with you today helps doing that.

Jim Allan: So what do you need? What do you need today, and how can viewers of this help you out?

Hugh Wanless: Oh, great question, Jim. So it seems like it's been going for a while. We started this process in the fall of last year, and so it's not something that turns overnight. As I mentioned, you need all the money up front before you can submit the applications. So I didn't really talk too much about the groups of Afghans we're bringing over, but just a quick highlight, and I guess I'll quickly answer your question. We still need money. The reason being, so we've identified four families, three of which have escaped from Afghanistan to Pakistan.

Jim Allan: So it's $40,000 per family, and you need that in the bank before the applications even made?

Hugh Wanless: Correct, yeah, because again, the program is set up that it is 100% funded by non-government agencies. So they basically say, show me the money. So the fourth family that's not yet out of Afghanistan, we are still raising money for that family. So we've raised over $100,000, so I think we're doing pretty well. I would say we're still looking for anywhere between $25,000 to $40,000. Remembering the $40,000 isn't necessarily a ceiling, and that really helps the family for the first year. So it's pretty hard to transition from that first year to the second year without any support. So our goal would be, if we have monies left, again, all the monies that we raise will be going to these families. It'd be nice to give them a little bit of a cushion as they go into that second year, because they may not be quite at the situation where they're 100% self-sufficient. So fundraising, they can do that through the Maple Grove United Church's website, and that's maplegroveunitedchurch.org. And on there, if you go down towards the bottom, that's how to help contribute to Maple Grove causes. There's a link there that takes you to Canada Helps. You get a tax deduction right away, and all that money is segregated within the church. You don't use those monies for any other reason than the refugees that we've identified.

Jim Allan: Thanks, Hugh, for coming.

Hugh Wanless: Oh, good. Well, thank you very much, Jim, and thank you to your readers and followers, and we'll see where we go from here.