Interview with Graham Saywell

Graham Saywell recently caught my attention with a post on LinkedIn where he wrote about supplementing his 40 years as a video and TV editor with stints as a school bus driver, Uber driver and even a certified home inspector. We talk about it all.

Watch: https://youtu.be/olsy5_qZI2w

Unedited Transcript.

Jim Allan: From the wonderful world of television and video post-production editor colorist technical producer 40 years I made a mistake already. Welcome,Graham Saywell.

Graham Saywell: Thanks for having me

Jim Allan: So, on your profile on LinkedIn which is where I connected with you reconnected with you you write Old Dog New Tricks. So, explain. What's that mean?

Graham Saywell: I think and we could probably spend a whole Dedicated interview talking about ageism in the industry and in all industries really

Jim Allan: it's part of life sadly

Graham Saywell: Yeah, it is it is part of life. I think you know that whole adage. You can't teach an old dog new tricks Well, I'm here to say that that's basically crap You know I spent my entire life working in post-production as you know and worked with technology as it evolved and so every step of the way was learning a new trick and just because I became older that didn't mean I wasn't able to absorb the technology and Going from what used to be millions and millions of dollars worth of equipment that took up computer rooms with racks and yeah, and I'm now working on a you know a very souped-up mind you Mac and and monitoring system in my studio You know you that that that's part of the game, so you have to learn the new tricks and I've been able to do that and so I did it for me. It was reinforcing. Hey, I might be older But I'm not anywhere near done yet, and and I could teach you a few things some of you younger guys and

Jim Allan: yeah So that's that two years or three years younger than you so you could Teach me something yeah, so old dog okay, so here. I'll you know how they test Trump is cognitive ability I have a memory game for you. Oh great memory game. When did we meet? I bet you can't remember

Graham Saywell: very specifically or approximately

Jim Allan: Roughly

Graham Saywell: I'm gonna say 1986 or 85

Jim Allan: wrong

Graham Saywell: okay

Jim Allan: wrong CKLN

Graham Saywell: oh my goodness now

Jim Allan: so the Ryerson campus radio station, right? So you were the station manager.

Graham Saywell: I was yeah,

Jim Allan: right so you were you're Probably in I'm a fresh-faced first year and you're in third year, and I went down to Ckln

Graham Saywell: 1980, then.

Jim Allan: well for me it would have been yes He would have for me it would have been fall so I would have walked in and you were the station manager so That's how we met and I I was assigned as a first-year student. I was teamed with a fellow named John Jones who you might remember

Graham Saywell: Yes.

Jim Allan: and we did a weekly show together called artists spotlight John went on to CFNY and MuchMusic, mainly in management, but he had great pipes sort of like you do You've got great pipes So he did most of the talking on our show together I was terrible, and I still am but and then by second year. I did a comedy thing with a bunch of my Classmates.

Graham Saywell: was that Bill Keenan and

Jim Allan: no no they're older. They're older than me. It was that's tough to do a half-hour To do a half-hour comedy a week is not realistic. Yeah, five minutes, maybe but it was like It was an in-house radio station one or two point nine at the didn't you stay around for a couple more years?

Graham Saywell: I stayed around for one more year to get it on air To do the license application right and once that application was in the system And basically we knew it would be approved then I left and Anton Leo Became the second full-time station manager. I first year when you met me I was just The student like everybody else and I was paid a very small honorarium We applied to the the Ryerson board of directors and whoever else was involved We were an incorporated entity by then to create a full-time management position Because the radio station had to have it in order to qualify for the CRTC license You couldn't you couldn't have a totally volunteer run license so I Remember there was controversy, you know, oh, I I've given myself a job. Hey, guess what that job paid like $8,000 a year, right? Anyway,

Jim Allan: I hope you invested some

Graham Saywell: yes I did Anton Leo and John Jones then as you mentioned they took over they were physically there for the Keeping-up-the-switch when it went on the air at 88 one Anton Leo went on to become the head of CBC English language services You know like a distinguished career with the CBC running all of the entertainment He was also a comedian. So he he was very involved with the television side So it's interesting. There's been a lot of alumni that have come out of that Maie Pauts who yes most people know

Jim Allan: I read the news on her show briefly. I mean she was awesome then

Graham Saywell: and she's won and then just recognized.

Jim Allan: Yep She's still working

Graham Saywell: She is she's at boom 97 3 anyway,

Jim Allan: you were I mean most people if you go to a radio station campus You're interested in music. Yep. You were you are a musician. I am and I and I I Left my music Brief music career to come to Ryerson When you are this is my memory working now, aren't you a roadie for Chris Deberg?

Graham Saywell:  Yeah

Jim Allan: I don't know why I remember

Graham Saywell: Yes, I when I left Ryerson when I left CKLN and I went and a friend of mine Gary Howsam who was also RTA grad Quite a bit older than us. He sort of went as an adult He had started a music rehearsal studio called green light productions And so he asked me if I'd like to come and kind of manage it for him Because he was busy doing other stuff and so I did And invested a bit of money in it. We're not talking Thousands of dollars here. It was pretty small But one of the bands that rehearsed out of there was Chris DeBerg's backup band They were all from Toronto and having spent like three or four weeks with them in the studio They needed somebody to be basically a guitar and keyboard technician and would I be interested and going from 200 bucks a week Canadian to 500 US cash money was like Okay, and getting to go on the road with like that caliber of musician Which I never would have become or never have become

Jim Allan: big hits lady in red, right?

Graham Saywell: Lady in red Spanish train don't pay the ferriman. Anyway, so Chris DeBerg in his own right was huge in in the UK and Europe and in Canada Not so much in the States We toured around and then that summer we did we toured with Supertramp and Joe Cocker was three together It was Supertramp's last tour of the original band And there were full shows there were festival or festival things like 80,000 people and When we came back off of that the record company had had him opening Chris DeBerg is the opening act for Asia the band Asia

Jim Allan: Wow super group

Graham Saywell: The super group that had super egos super attitude That tour failed they we did a month maybe 20 shows and then they shut it down. It was it was terrible. They were terrible Like it was just all were Asia with Individually the musicians was

Jim Allan: the guys from yes.

Graham Saywell: Yep, Steve Howe and Steve. Howe was a lovely guy

Jim Allan: Emerson Lake and Palmer.

Graham Saywell: Paul Palmer on drums Jeffrey Downs was the keyboard player I can't remember who the other guy was but anyway, it was like all you know amps 211 It was like spinal tap on drugs. Nobody gave a shit about anybody else. It was just and it was Our manager ChrisDeBerg's manager Kenny Thompson who was also Dougie Thompson from Supertramp the bass player's brother There was a connection there He also did front of house So he'd go out to the front of house desk to mix Chris for the opening and he says, you know I looked down and their banks of graphic equalizers for the PA system. He says they were all in bypass and He said to the Asia sound guy says What's with this? He says oh, do you want to use them? Go ahead? You know, he says I have no no control There were literally just they just got up. They everything was to 11. They played As loud as they could and there was equipment hanging from the ceiling It was just all flash and dash and it was the 80s. I mean it should have been But it was yeah, and and it didn't take long for word to get around Hey, they're a good band in the studio. They got a couple of hits. Heat of the moment Live Right. It's just a cacophony of crap and Karl Palmer was an asshole. He he kept saying Oh Chris deBerg sells more records than us and you and you're up and we're going yeah Well, there's probably a reason for that, you know and he's still touring he's still going around I I Connect with him occasionally on

Jim Allan: Chris DeBerg?

Graham Saywell: yeah, yeah Yeah, I've got a I've got for me that was I had a nine-month or say a year and change with the two tours I did a street tour, you know as my pinnacle of I got to live that life

Jim Allan: the rock and roll life

Graham Saywell: And so for me, it's a super important period of my life and I have great memories of it You know, these guys are doing it their whole lives They don't what they remember and I found an old newspaper clipping somebody would mention that there's a Song called Patricia the stripper that was on his first album Spanish train that with everybody and oh it if Patricia the stripper was alive today, she'd be a hundred years old because the song took place in 1924 or whatever and I had a photograph from a newspaper in Munich of Myself the other roadie Chris's wife one of our truck drivers We used to get up and they always had a stripper as part of the show Like a real stripper. Yeah a real stripper. Yeah, and she'd come out during Patricia the stripper and Start to do a dance and then Bruce and I would have we were dressed up as Bobbies English Bobbies And we would walk out and grab her and then instead of taking her away We'd end up all doing this high high kick thing was hilarious It was my two minutes of fame every night. So I so I posted this picture and and chris Responded like oh my god, what a memory and what a great shot and she says says, you know All of these moments that that you know He understood that that for me was a big moment the fact I kept that who would have kept a newspaper from 40 Years ago. I did I did it for two tours and then one more with the same band a different artist and Then my wife gave birth to our first child. And so that was it for me. I Started looking for a real job.

Jim Allan: Well, and that's maybe when I met you because now we're up to about 87 Suddenly I run into you at this place. It might have been 87 in there because that's when I started this particular job Suddenly you're an editor. So I knew you and you you would have recognized me and I recognize. Yeah. Yeah, of course But how did that happen? How did you become an editor?

Graham Saywell: Well when I when I came back off the road Senior editor really the only main editor.

Jim Allan: It's called the right spot, right?

Graham Saywell: That's right. I was the only editor

Jim Allan: Yeah, a little boutique at it My the company I worked at was one of the places we use and you were right around the corner.

Graham Saywell: That's right Yeah, we were very convenient No when I got back off the road, I mean I was I wanted to be in the music side of the business Whether it was on the radio side. I did a very brief stint at q107 They got me to do overnight fill-in shifts for some guy if he was too, you know wasted to show up for a show They'd call me and I realized

Jim Allan: on air?

Graham Saywell: Uh-huh. Yeah overnight I think I did a half a dozen shifts. I Wanted to do something else in radio. I didn't want to be a disc jockey I wanted to be in programming or music or something else. But anyway coming back off the road I had a very good friend also Ryerson grad David Wilson was his name. He ended up at the Journal and then CBC News for the balance of his career He said oh, you know to do audio because you've been working sound with all of that I said well talking massive PA systems not So, you know Holding a boom mic or putting a lav on somebody and push and play and record on a portable VCR Shouldn't be a problem for you. And I said, I don't think so But so I started doing that and I got introduced to this company, which was Owned the right spot BTV business television, right and they paid like a hundred and something dollars a day Which then was that was okay And they gave me more work more work. They had a little edit suite to Three-quarter inch decks straight cuts. I think you could do a fade the black

Jim Allan: Interesting Economics because you're getting paid $100 a day and I'm pretty sure we're probably paying $100 an hour to To hire you so somebody is like you got to buy the equipment etc. Etc.

Graham Saywell: So well, we know how that's changed But anyway,

Jim Allan: the equipment was incredibly expensive

Graham Saywell: sure it was they they owned their own camera They owned they had a little editing room, but not that they could rent it out. Really. It was very straightforward They did all strictly corporate stuff a lot of food related stuff Loblaws and the food marketing Institute and training videos and And the producers would shoot and they would edit their own stuff. It was quite a closed Package and one of the producers gave a name on Mike Giamprini

Jim Allan: He was my year at Ryerson.

Jim Allan: Yeah said you know what I really hate editing He says how about I show you how to edit because that would be great for me because then I won't have to do It and I was kind of their technical person at that point. I went out on shoot So I looked after their equipment. So I had a good technique. I've always had a good technical Understanding I went sure that'd be fun, you know, so I started doing that and then we decided okay The quality of the videos that they were producing when compared to other corporate video production companies was lacking We couldn't even do a dissolve between cameras, right? It was cuts only well, we need a what was then called an a B roll edit suite So you need to edit controller you needed a switcher and you needed multiple VTRs And then the world was changing from three-quarter inch to beta cam was the thing And so I just took it on and I got to build a studio and I just threw myself 120% into learning everything and I loved it and then Having done that We were still pretty new but the reputation was good I I had a pretty good reputation and so that offered a job at an actual post house

Jim Allan: My point of view you guys were an actual post house.

Graham Saywell: Well, we had a niche, right? We were for sure and that little post house Ironically and you mentioned earlier off-camera Jim Smith's who was the sales guy they brought in who was a hustler and he got all kinds of people

Jim Allan: Well, he used to take us to blue jay games and and absolutely from my point of view you'll learn Okay, this was a sales guide like blue jay games and leaf. He took us to a leaf box.

Graham Saywell: Yeah, maybe

Jim Allan: then I ended up when I went freelance. I ended up he was one of my clients Okay, so I did he was I don't know where I can't even remember where we would have maybe we edited them at I can't remember for him

Graham Saywell: that little edit suite did like three-quarters of a million dollars worth of business a year Right for the two or three years. It was running like that. Right and then they sold it I mean they sold the company this that the equipment got sold off at and it was uncanny you talked to people Oh, that's impossible. I'm going We were booked solid. Yeah all the time I had two three sessions a day in there five days a week sometimes weekends And then I was fortunate enough that when when I left and they were kind of closing that part down I went to another company that was predominantly focused on corporate video clients And so I had a lot of my my clients come over with me when that that was always a big bonus If you were moving somewhere, hey, I can bring some work with me All right.

Jim Allan: Now you're always you're always a musician through this period Or does it does it is it helpful to being an editor? being a musician as well because I a lot of Editors, I know are or three I know are drummers for instance Yeah, is that does that do you see a connection between?

Graham Saywell: Oh, absolutely being a musician I mean, I will tell you a couple of a couple of things Obviously your sense of timing and everybody knows editing there's timing involved and so

Jim Allan: rhythm and pace and things like that

Graham Saywell: All of those things, you know, not just being able to count to four But Especially when you a lot of the original corporate video stuff would have a music track and there would always be some kind of an opening That would and it was usually some kind of an industrial soundtrack provided by network or one of those music services And so it was always da-da-da-da-da big beats and big things and so you could sit there and yeah I hear those beats I know where they fall on the track and I can sit here and push buttons that to match those cuts And it

Jim Allan: definitely if you're using music influences Yeah, you're editing for sure

Graham Saywell: on the other side. I worked on a series more recently called Confucius was a foodie And they it was a lower budget food and travel show Done by a company called lofty sky entertainment who are great great production company They do more documentary work than than that, but but they were a limited budget They had purchased some music from a composer but after we'd done two seasons of it and I was editing and Finishing it's the last real job that I did offline editing on It was more to help them out than anything But I got so sick and tired of this repetitive music stuff I only had a choice of this many tracks, right? So I thought this is stupid. I had a digital keyword in my studio Tied to then I think it was just garage So

Jim Allan: that's what composing the composer part and and

Graham Saywell: and so I started I said Would you mind if I like there's a scene here about Paris and they're going to Paris and we really need just like A little accordion sort of we can put some reverb as if there's a guy like a synthesizer Yeah, so I do it and they go. Wow, that's great And then

Jim Allan: so you play piano as well or

Graham Saywell: I play keyboards guitars a little bit of drums But with with the digital I mean I play live stuff but but in the studio with product was you know I use logic Pro now, but you know all the instruments are available a regular Cheap old Yamaha digital keyboard that you get from Long and McQuade for 200 bucks you plug it in you can play whatever you want and I started doing these things and They loved it and I loved doing it because it was like this is cool Now I'm writing something and I'm not that an accomplished composer that I would offer that up as a service to other people In terms of saying yes, I can compose the score for your film

Jim Allan: They're not complete songs. They're they're they're a layer that ground I mean, you're not supposed to notice in that you're not supposed to notice editing And you're not most supposed to know it's it's all blends in a lot of

Graham Saywell: in a lot of cases I did score a couple of pieces that were used as Things like credits background for credits, so the music does stand out on its own. It's there We all know people don't really watch the credits and if you're a broadcaster they poof them off into the corner

Jim Allan: Sometimes I do. You're looking for a friend or yeah

Graham Saywell: Yeah I have to take screen grabs when my son's name is up on the credits that say look I actually saw the show you worked on

Jim Allan:so I checked your IMBD which is oh, yes, you'll list all your Shows I have zero reference I have zero mentions of on IMBD. comedy now in 29 episodes Confucius was a foodie, which you just mentioned 13 episodes come dine with me Canada 240 episodes What's it like to edit? 240 episodes of something does it drive you you go crazy.

Graham Saywell: So come dine with me Canada Was a spinoff from the British version called come dine with me I actually came back to Toronto I was in Nova Scotia for four years while my wife finished off her radio career and out there I had quite a bit of work, but the Maritimes is a feast or famine scenario and Anyway as a result I came back While I was here I was helping out another friend on a cooking show and I got offered come dine with me Canada and they said you know This is huge At that time they only had 40 episodes if it gets picked up It's gonna be 80 episodes a season and you've got to be 100% on this show. That's all you're gonna do I'm like wow, but the money was really good The post host that brought me back Picked up my moving expenses like it was like they they needed somebody dedicated and there There wasn't anybody in town that was willing to do that So we created a factory there were three of us that worked on up we had I had a student that we hired from from Mohawk The other guy that had been the assistant editor at this place We kind of moved him up and one of us the student would load all the footage Terry would would do the conforming I would do all the color correction and packaging and we spat it out the door and it was also the time that the Fukushima disaster happened which as a sideline wiped out the tape Factory business in Japan the biggest tape Manufacturer was in that area and it got so all of a sudden we had to launch into digital Delivery and we were the first TV series that deliver digitally. So we not only Like we mastered stuff tough. It was all HD. But I mean it was crazy and yeah, it was a factory. It was like Three and a half years of just living and breathing but thank God it was a great show because You know had it been not so

Jim Allan: now it's called lifestyle television, right? Yep, as opposed to like reality television That's a very specific genre and you've edited literally hundreds of episodes, right? So did you ever direct that you ever want to direct?

Graham Saywell: No,

Jim Allan: so you found  home in post.

Graham Saywell: I directed and produced a training video on plumbing supplies Right back in 19

Jim Allan:It went bad?

Graham Saywell: No,  I won an ITVA award for it and I said that's it I've I'm I'm I peaked. I'm never doing those again I don't know.

Jim Allan: You know, I remember running into you at a couple of those award shows Yeah, we're always very nice to me. So because you were you know, here's this older guy. He's been nice to me Everything evens out. So I definitely noticed your recent post on LinkedIn That's when I I contacted you because I loved it Because it's refreshing refreshingly honest, right? So there's just so much BS out there in the world and including LinkedIn really. I mean your your words kind of lept off the page So I'm gonna read a little bit of it Your words one thing I've learned in the post business is that you have to be flexible and Adaptable to keep food on the table. I've had gaps like most in the industry and fill them by driving a school bus Driving uber and I also became a certified home inspector So which I loved because there was actual honesty. There's so much people just peddling You know BS in terms of what what working life is really like. So what motivated you to? Write this to make this

Graham Saywell: well I mean I had also posted not not that long ago that I was looking for my next project Which is right very often what you do. Yeah, and I had a very busy 2023 and 2024 has been very quiet And I'm not worried. I mean things come along but there had been times in the past Where I did have bigger gaps when when I was out in the Maritimes the What what basically? Made me think of coming back East or coming back East that doesn't sound right coming back to Ontario So the center of the universe apparently moving West. Yeah. Yeah Can West global Went bankrupt back in 2009 I believe and So, you know, there wasn't a risk of them stopping They would be sold off as the Aspers kid managed to bankrupt them But what happened was there was an immediate halt in all productions that were happening for for networks like the Food Network HGTV Etc. So It just so happened at the time that all of the shows I was working on out there were food related or HGTV related and so they all stopped so I went from being really busy to having nothing And I was starting to get a little cabin fever My wife was still working on in the radio and local radio station.

I'm like I got to do something I'm like it's not just about making money It was about personal kind of sanity. I Saw an ad for a local school bus company and I said it That can't you know be a bad thing I mean I'll get a drive I'll get a commercial driver's license out of this if nothing else because we train you you've Seen the ads, you know So I went did it and I never signed on as a full-time driver. I stay as a spare I only drove for maybe four months back and forth, but it was great. It gave me something to do The fact it paid less than minimum wage was irrelevant When I came back to Toronto, we had another gap and so I had I had actually driven for a fellow Ryerson Graduate who owned a company called MSL Transport and they do shuttle bus services for the hospitals They do the University Health Network and so on so I drove for him for a little bit just Off and on and I thought well, that's touchy because I've got to commit to a schedule And if somebody phones me for a video job, you know, what am I gonna do? so I thought why don't I See what uber's like so I did I did the uber thing and as I mentioned in my thing You know, I got I got a job out of that I got up like a fairly large video editing job out of that doing commercials because I happen to drive the head of the Extreme reach my Joe.

Jim Allan: Yeah, you mentioned that in your post. Yeah, so I'm like, you know, you just don't or get out there

Graham Saywell: Well, that's a lot of that has to do with basically saying, you know It's an unsure Industry for sure, you know as well as anybody you watched, you know How many post houses were there in the 80s there were tons of them? Yeah, you know You couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting one downtown basically and then they all various and I went through four bankruptcies four Not personal bankruptcies but four companies that I had worked for that went under right and every time You know lost this lost that had to recover You adapt or you just get out of the industry.

Jim Allan: Well, it's you know, it's tech change and and just speaking personally It's like, you know, I always wanted to as you learn in Ryerson. I own the means of production. Yeah, right. So Thinking it would be like a recession Proof me that I was always like a writer and director, but I shot stuff occasionally because you have to and it's and eventually I could afford a camera and eventually I Had you talking about the cost of editing suites people don't understand like suddenly The cost of a laptop or a computer plus the cost of the software suddenly Suddenly I'm editing Yeah avid media composer or learning and it started and I and I always thought maybe I'd do a rough I'd learn enough to do a rough Offline or whatever take it downtown pay to them by this point two hundred dollars an hour, right and And I did that once I you know I was I was just basically straight cut at it dissolve and you can play with effects But if I needed graphics, I could drop them in somebody else could do them that's when they started going out of business because Because it's the economy the economic factors are undeniable You can't compete with someone like you can get in for so five thousand dollars instead of You said half a million at the beginning.

Graham Saywell: Well, that was that's and I worked in places that had millions of dollars

Jim Allan: But here's really look they look better now because it's all again the other part of tech changes. It's all HD now 4k, right?

Graham Saywell: So so that's the thing I I Taught at Sheridan College for a couple years and Humber Just as a part-time industry person and and there were always these stereotypes well at at Sheridan We use all Apple stuff so it was final cut was the editing system and And I would say but I don't know anything about final cut because I don't use it But I do know about editing and I do know about Compositing and so I'm not gonna teach you how to use software. You're gonna learn that on your own I'm gonna teach you about the whole idea of what you're what you're wanting to learn here editing and and doing image compositing work and stuff And you'll figure out the piece of equipment. It's like a carpenter and his tools, you know Well, I I'd like to use this hammer. Okay, but this hammer you still know how to hammer a nail, right? Thank me

Jim Allan: if there's any young editors watching. I mean This is why it's wise to learn multiple Yep The pieces of software

Graham Saywell: and this was always the thing because they'd asked me to teach on specific platforms and I said no I don't know those platforms. I'm not gonna do a good job I'll teach on the platforms that I know but I'm only gonna use them as an example Yeah, and I said to the kids I said if you go out of this course thinking I'm a Adobe After Effects editor or I'm just a premiere or You've limited your options immediately if you say I'm an editor or I'm a compositor Oh you use You know digital fusion you use after effects you use Maya. Okay. Well, the concept is the same Yeah, it's what button does what you'll learn that That was a problem. I found was the community colleges back then without very focused and they got big sponsorship money from these companies But what I'm what I'm leading to here kind of in a roundabout fashion is yes the equipment is cheaper Yes, I have I have more power pretty much on my iPhone than I had and a lot of the editing rooms I worked at It's the people running it and That experience where it there are bargain basement people working out of there. It was always a joke Oh, he's working out of his basement. Yes A lot of people do that now after the after the pandemic how many hundreds maybe thousands of people in this industry ended up working from home and Still work from home.

Jim Allan: Yeah, I mean if anything the video editing and here we are and you're doing that years before Became popular because people wouldn't even know where I was. Yeah, they didn't need to I was I could have been at a Ski resort and I was I might have been skiing. Yeah, I might have been editing in the morning Because it's all portable if you have a laptop, right? Yeah, so things changed a lot for sure. Yeah, so I mean you're a survivor I mean knowing other than being willing to Just do anything to pay some bills What advice could you give to people just starting out as a creative professional just to survive a long career?

Graham Saywell: Well I've had people comment some of my Alumni friends sort of like wow you did all of these different things and you know I got a job at the CBC and I stayed there for 35 years and I'm like well You have a pension and I don't yes. I mean there's a trade-off. Yes I always thought depending on what you want to do. I always admired people who had this very fixed Kind of you know, I'm gonna be a sportscaster and so guys like Michael Landsberg for example Who also worked at CKLN and I'm gonna be a sportscaster and by God he was a sportscaster in a very good one And and you know, that was his career. I always thought about oh What's down that road? What's down? You know somebody says you want to go on the road with a with one of the best, you know More popular bands in the world right now Geez, that'd be fun I think oh, you know and I learned a lot from that that I apply to my daily life even today The advice I would give to anybody is don't limit yourself By saying unless you absolutely know unless you're a Michael Landsberg or a Paul Romanoch or any of those guys I'm using as an example that's great and Go for it. But if you want to experience the different kind of flavors of the world either It's through being able to travel with your job or being able to develop your own material or whatever it is Then then look for opportunities that will give you different Experiences because it's the combination of all of those experiences that create, you know that Diversity as I said I'm a certified home inspector. I started taking courses But partially because I'd done training videos for years on that kind of stuff Then I started working on reality TV shows and I've also done my own Renovations and stuff and built studios. I thought I could do that and hey that sounds like a pretty good fallback I haven't made a lot of money doing it. I don't do a full-time But it's there and if I had to focus and say, okay I'm I'm done in television. I you know, I've got some place to go but

Jim Allan: how can people get in touch with you if they want to like hire you to

Graham Saywell: well I'm I'm on LinkedIn Which has my contact information? I'm also on Facebook. There's only as far as I know two or three Graham say well in the world Google Yeah, if you Google my name, you'll get you'll get the LinkedIn the IMDB I'd love people to reach out questions. I'm happy to answer anything.

Jim Allan: Well, thanks for coming. I appreciate it

Graham Saywell: Hey, this was fun

Jim Allan: long drive.

Graham Saywell: I didn't know what to expect and I'm quite clear that and lovely to see you again Of course.

Jim Allan: Yes, even though you don't remember meeting me.

Graham Saywell: Well the very very very first time

Jim Allan: I knew that might stump you.

Graham Saywell: It did it did. It's a good job Good job mate

Jim Allan: All right. Well, thanks again. Thanks for coming by.

Graham Saywell: Oh, no problem