Interview with Ben Moorsom

Ben Moorsom, President & CEO of Debut Group, is known for using the principles of psychology when creating events. Now, Ben has written a book, “Engagement: Decoded”. It describes, in detail, how Debut designs scientifically-backed communications, experiences and interactions to help clients achieve a level of engagement that leads to behavioural adoption.  We talk about it.

Watch: https://youtu.be/-9J8b7bN8U0

Unedited transcript.

Jim Allan: Ben Moorsom

Ben Moorsom: Yes.

Jim Allan: …has written a book, Engagement Decoded, How to Navigate Deeper Human Connections and Drive the Change You Want. So this is 25 years, 25 odd years of distilled into one volume. Is your life's work? Is it not?

Ben Moorsom:  It is. I would go so far as to say the the realization was 30 years ago is April 1992.

Jim Allan: So you've got the date.

Ben Moorsom: I got the date.

Jim Allan: What happened on that date? Did somebody hurt you or?

Ben Moorsom: Well that was basically when I was plucked out of college into an apprentice program long before the apprentice actually became a thing. I would say it was more of an experiment which is ironic because that leads to a lot more about my life's work. I was put into a one-week experiment to be hyper trained into the role of an associate producer in a marketing company.

Jim Allan: It's called Communique.. We can name some names

Ben Moorsom: Yes, we have some interesting connections.

Jim Allan: I worked there from 87 to 90 and you were after that.

Ben Moorsom: Yeah, but I have to say I thought in April 1992 that I had made the biggest mistake of my life.

Jim Allan: By going there?

Ben Moorsom: By going there. By yeah and that actually in hindsight it was 30 years later here I am. I'm in the same industry, the you know communications experiences, marketing. But it took me that time. The reason why I thought that is coming out of training in an interest in film. I mean my initial ambition was was to understand film and then I realized in those first couple of years of college that it was the psychology of film that interested me more. You know why does it move us? Why do we go? Why can we sit and pay attention for all that time? And then I go to you know this new world of marketing communications and events.

Jim Allan: So these conferences and meetings failed your expectations. They weren't you didn't find them engaging. You didn't find them motivational or persuasive or the things that they claimed to be.

Ben Moorsom: Exactly. I felt and this was the the first taste I had in trying to understand what engagement was. And you know here you have in conferences the difference is when you go to a film you choose to go and it better be good or you're never going back type of thing. And you know after a good film I mean I was a film lover you think about it for hours days after you reflect on it. It has a you know it moves you.

Jim Allan: A good movie does

Ben Moorsom: and in an event in essence you're for the most part a captive audience and stimulus is just being thrust upon you. I would call it carpet bombing and which you know as opposed to you know more is more. I'm just going to you know dump all of this stimuli on an audience and hope that they retain some of it or move.

Jim Allan: But you're a kid right? There's only so much you could do in 1992.

Ben Moorsom: Yeah.

Jim Allan: But and then the next few years we saw each other around you're at another company. I worked there on a freelance basis. I mean we know a lot of the same people so you but everyone kind of does everything the same in a sense. Is that fair to say even today? Is that fair to say?

Ben Moorsom: Yeah same format.

Jim Allan: So you got kind of antsy. As you say in the book, in 97, you walked. Very dramatic. You walked and started your own company.

Ben Moorsom: I stepped onto a glass bridge.

Jim Allan: And in 1997 is that right?

Ben Moorsom: yup.

Jim Allan: So what was the motivation there? You just you had worked a few years at that point.

Ben Moorsom: Yeah I you know during those first years I had a I kind of created a policy when I was when I started at Communique. I said okay I'm going to do this but I won't do it for more than two years. And I don't know where the two year rule came up but I felt like two years is enough to learn from from this place. I kind of had realized that my ambition wasn't to be an employee. I felt like I wanted to make a change in an industry that needed change. The only way to do that was to learn as much as I can and then figure out a way to be able to amplify it and experiment myself with more freedom because in those years leading up to 97 I started to test theories in small ways because as you said I was a kid. I could only impact so much but I could the things I could impact like sound of an event. Why can't we score an event? Why do we have to use top 40 music or the visual imagery of an event? Why can't it be cinematic more?

So I realized subconsciously I started you know infusing where the principles that I know worked and attracted us in our daily lives. And the one thing that I really thought about and why it disappointed me in the beginning is I knew instinctively no one goes home to watch clip art. No one goes home to read two-page memos. You don't communicate to your spouse like that. You know you want to go home and read a good story. You want to have good stories and conversation. You want to watch things that are emotive and cinematic. I learned that the three words not to say to corporate leadership were feeling heart or emotion yet instinctively I knew those were the things that actually were the you know the secret to actually connecting an audience back to your company.

Jim Allan: Now you sent me your book and while waiting for your book to arrive it is kind of stimulated some you know memories in my mind. So they're all back in that it may or may not involve you.

Ben Moorsom: Well I hope it was engaging.

Jim Allan: Well I started I started to think about something I heard about you in the late 90s when you were starting Debut and correct me if I'm wrong. It was like you just mentioned music.

Ben Moorsom: Yes.

Jim Allan: Right. So electronic dance music. Does that ring a bell? So is that part of your origin story? Like you it was a big deal with you?

Ben Moorsom: It was a huge deal because it was the first thing that I actually could affect without asking permission for events and I could impose my own style and then I started to become known you know in the with the clients that I would work with that you know Ben's going to score our event. It just so happened that music is also a personal passion of mine. I produce music electronic dance music.

Jim Allan: Did you ever see the Zac Efron movie? We Are Your Friends? Where he's a DJ.

Ben Moorsom: Yes and he would manage the audience and the flow and resonate the music to the audience.

Jim Allan: Yes that was the director was one of the guys behind the MTV show Catfish which I was watching at the time so I made sure I watched the movie but there's a really good scene in there where they explain if anyone's watching and wants to learn more about electronic dance music just google Emily Radkowski dance scenebecause then Zac Efron of high school musical fame is uh really does a good explanation of how like the way he describes it zoning in on your kind of heartbeat and then maybe raising it and then sinking everyone.

Ben Moorsom: That's right.

Jim Allan: So it was kind of it was it was good. I recommend you. Well it's Google's your friend.

Ben Moorsom: It is and that's interesting because that ended up kind of touching on a really foundational element of what uh you know has today come out of a lot of our research and our approach as a company of the fusion of behavior and and experience design is is resonance. We call it cognitive resonance for what we're trying to achieve to you know to to fuse a company and an audience and close that gap and in that scene it's a really good example of using music to create resonance and so I guess what I you know the key highlight of my whole journey through those companies and I look back at it now prior to 97 was a testing ground informal like I didn't realize that that's what I was actually doing all the time that I was experimenting because one of the things I did I started to do in 92 when I felt kind of you know regret is I stopped most producers look at the you know the stage and the show delivering and trying to execute on what I started to do I was turned to the audience and I became like consumed with watching the audience so like that scene again respond to the event and figure out how to adapt and it's like

Jim Allan: so I think you mentioned that in the book you you can your goal is to make little adjustments while while the event's going on so

Ben Moorsom: calibrate it is

Jim Allan: so do people think the room's too cold is the music too loud is you know I mean there's some things you can't change probably the contents got locked

Ben Moorsom: well you can't you can build the ultimate events you can build variability into it so that you know we call it like like I would call it an intervention you know where okay and and this is where you have to work with your clients more I mean my my ultimate goal and vision in the future which I've sort of been you know striving towards I've been investing in like artificial intelligence for in content delivery in a company in LA and and you know we were exploring the use of wearable devices on audiences pre-covid that we would use these algorithms to watch so basically think of it this way we could calibrate an audience set a threshold range of where we know that they are attentive focused you know where their energy is at a optimal level . think about an event a live event that adapts in real time to the human experience the the broader audience because an audience is a collection of individuals but that being you know you build variabilities like lighting changes can happen temperature changes can be automated sets can be automated you know have them change we know if an audience might need restoration we can then have a host that's trying to say hey let's go to a break now that's that wasn't pre-scheduled that's an intervention or let's build in other other elements yet to be discovered that's

Jim Allan: so now again that edm I guess it is it is part of your origin story but obviously it's it's moved well beyond music to all elements of the show as you're describing now to the point where you've coined a term Neuroscaping. I've seen promote this before the book so Ben you're you're in an elevator with Tim Cook let's explain Neuroscaping  to me yeah .your elevator pitch.

Ben Moorsom: basically Neuroscaping is now using behavioral insights to inform design decisions every design decision for an experience or a communication strategy so that it is more inclined to resonate on a cognitive level with audience you want to engage thereby you know in the end you're managing the attentional economics the strategic mood induction and the internalization of value and that's in essence having an experience that is best aligned to the cognitive state of your audience

Jim Allan: okay and how can that help me, Tim Cook?

Ben Moorsom: well it means we look at you know focus attention we look at cognitive fatigue and looking at the you know the propensity to to lose attention we're looking at barriers and opportunities to connect with people and we determine that at any given time an audience whether they're live or virtual or sitting at home watching something passively is only truly focused 25 to 32 percent of the time and that's actually probably on the high end of what reality really is but as scientists they like to be conservative when they determine these things so Neuroscaping for me became this concept even a theory initially where if we can keep improving that one percent at a time to you know we are going to be able to increase you know the the amount of attention the amount of retention that an audience will have after an event then that's better for everybody not just the company but it's also better for the audience and most people look at engagement as more is more we got to do more to grab attention because attention is a finite resource and if people are distracted or mind-wandering 52 percent of the time we need to make noise and that's what the events were in the beginning you know ride a cycle down the aisle blow up some stuff on stage have this immensely energetic opening so there we've got their attention but the truth is it's also what you don't do that actually and how you also help people be able to pay attention and that's what was the biggest missing piece of the equation and now we design things that manage that that's why we call it our methodology attentional economics because it's a resource

Jim Allan: so it's a lot of very advanced language in the book so and and but what i find impressive is you you do have if not on staff you've got a phd or two on staff or or serving you in an advisory level is that right ?

Ben Moorsom: yeah we we we've had full-time phds and and scientists on our staff now for the last almost 10 years at our own investment

Jim Allan: and that very definitely makes you different

Ben Moorsom: yes

Jim Allan: definitely makes you different so you've got some yep just some walk to talk to the walk or walk to whatever that expression is right but

Ben Moorsom: not only that jim we put uh i built a network because prior to that look i'm not the phd and i'll go up on stage and tell people but i'll share a lot of really interesting science right because what i realized i where my skill and strength was and and it was i had a passion for seeking research that you know and trying to use that to make sense of why should i do this like how can i back up my decision that's why i say insights to inform design decisions every decision of an event even one lighting decision could have five sub decisions is it flash what color is it is it going to yeah

Jim Allan: when you say evidence so you you can test it uh and you've measured it and you've researched audiences so it's it's notable because you have you've taken the time to do it which i don't think most people know would have the time

i'm gonna i'm gonna go back to that 92 to 97 period because again as i said it conjured up memories for me and this one has nothing to do with you you know and and it's related to you in the sense that you know in the book it's very comprehensive book but you you give away all your secrets right like it's your secret sauce here's here's the recipe

Ben Moorsom: it's all there

Jim Allan: it's all there and i'm i'm writing a speech for the president of k-mart canada doesn't exist anymore like the guy might not exist i hope it wasn't because of your speech well maybe it was it was uh uh he was making a big presentation to the retail council of canada or something like that we went back and forth you know a couple drafts finally he goes why am i why am i because he's talking to peers much like you are in the book really why am i giving all my secrets away it needs to be more bland so we took out all this so you know i go i said you know you want bland you've you've you've come to the right guy i do bland that's my specialty but are you sure you want to give away uh share your expertise with everyone because if everyone reads this you aren't you going to have a lot of little ben Moorsoms running around ?

Ben Moorsom: you know it's a good question jim and i had to sit on that one for a while because every you know we all have this instinct to protect like golem you know our you know our precious ip i guess i say and we spent decades and you know i invested everything all the time in back into science into research and the way i see it is like you know i wanted to i saw something broken and wrong with with the way companies were connecting with people and i figure how am i going to amplify this it's the only way to change make a change you know on a big scale is to just bite it and put it out there and and and hope that you create understanding that's why i was going out and doing a lot of keynotes i was sharing a lot of the principles of neuroscaping and why but um the inner voice experience which you read it's in the book there's the formula you know this is how to connect so deeply that you know i came up with seven years ago and now and we just concluded our the first primary research study on our creative piece like how many agencies go out there and will invest in primary research to test an idea because it could go either way in this case it ended up very positive the data

but

Jim Allan: yep i guess it what i guess it speaks to the question is why write the book why why do you is this for and i guess when i develop some of these questions it's like it's your audience right is it i can see okay you got your elevator pitch with tim cook you've got so you speak around north america and europe yeah how long is that presentation like an hour

Ben Moorsom:at the most

Jim Allan: sometimes so so you got the elevator pitch version of the one hour version this book is the full the full presentation right it's very comprehensive you know spoiler alert you can't finish the book in an hour to me it's more like um and i mean this in a in a nice way it's more like a university course

Ben Moorsom: it's a guide

Jim Allan: you need to allow time for it to sink in so you have to i had some time so you could put it down think about it a bit perhaps you know allow time to review because you know i've read it but i i'm not ready for you to you know test me on because it is comprehensive and quite dense it's but it's all there if you want to go back and read it so how much time would you need to pitch a new client on some of these ideas because they're different right you guys do it differently

Ben Moorsom: yeah it's interesting because we have sort of ways in which to start with a client now we you know we've kind of it's in and i think part of the reason is sort of going back to why is because it's i need it to be dense because it's a it's a disruptive way of looking at engagement right as we created what you know very simple ways for clients to start and actually a first engagement usually with a you know a large organization is what we call a behavioral navigator so it's a way where we can actually look at their challenge their behavioral challenge like how do we get people back to the office without having to mandate how can we attract them back versus force them back or things there's a there's a problem so we have a way of segmenting out the research we also have a lot of our own which already exists in ways that we do it and then they get a navigator report isn't just like here here you go it's on you it actually got helps now guide them figuring out what engagement means to them because it engagement has many different meanings it means something for every initiative or every organization we're finding that behavioral science and research is becoming a little bit more on trend and accepted because everybody understands that every event communication any strategy or initiative is asking for a behavior to happen so that's the reverse math that we do is if you want behavior out of your event what do you want you want people to adopt new ways of doing things you want them to sell more you want them to understand something you want them to give more money well those are all behaviors we can help you get a better result they're they're they're all they're they're all bought in at that point

Jim Allan: now i mean you do run into i mean some resistance occasionally of course of course and

Ben Moorsom: those aren't the companies that we then you pursue

Jim Allan: well that was my question it's like so you know you you have a you know you have a anecdote you know there's this client wants to wear i don't know red dress but high heels and loud music and that's yeah against everything that you've probably been trying to educate them

Ben Moorsom: yeah

Jim Allan: but i guess you got to do it or you try to talk them out of it um and it made me laugh in the book you had a client you know enough with the Neuroscaping and stuff please don't mention it again so what what if you what if you do if your client isn't receptive to some of your do you do you walk?

Ben Moorsom: we have walked and you know we're like okay this you know because there's a level of integrity you feel like i i've said a lot to my team there's a lot of business that we either lost or or walked away from you know and if we were the average agency you know you chase and you want you want it just because you want the money well you know no you know i i kind of own up to that that but at the same time now what we're realizing is there are companies that are coming to us as well that are finding us there's an example you know i got three years ago a message um and this guy has become a good friend of mine uh out of san francisco for sales force you know probably the the king of events in the tech world i mean their number one marketing vehicle is events dream force if you look it up it takes over the all of san francisco every every fall just happening um their events are beautiful they're you know they had 300 incredible talents in the three tallest buildings on the three corners of downtown san francisco there's all they have everything going for them and yet i get reached out to by this guy who who was very progressive and brave to actually question what they're doing and he asked you know his network in the bay area is there anybody that focuses on psychology of experiences that anybody knows at any agencies and they are partners with the biggest agency in the world that we know george b johnson another great great company um that i'm very proud to also help and support so we work with other agencies too so and they said no and he found my name in a white paper on mindful events that was done for imax um back in a few years ago and you know for three years we've been advising acting purely as an advisor looking at sometimes design decisions we spent a year studying sound for their virtual events

Jim Allan: i guess you you need to find those really bold forward-thinking leaders that are willing to hop on board with you yeah ceos though they might be around for some of them it might be the the end of their career the pinnacle of their career they might have three to five years left anyway it's like the final three to five years of their career so they might not want to rock the boat either so you're kind of looking for unicorns are you like sometimes does it feel like that sometimes

Ben Moorsom: sometimes but i'm surprised to to find how many are out there there are a lot of ceos out there that are actually concerned and care and realize that the same old doesn't work as effectively as the same old even didn't work as effectively before so they're now looking for that edge and this is what we're finding and most of our business ends up coming out of referrals anyways and it was before you know we fully sort of transitioned just word of mouth yeah an advisor it's like a leader goes from one to the other i mean it's we know industries that's why pharma were really strong because everybody moves around and

Jim Allan: i mean you need you need time to test and measure like time is very valuable do you isn't getting the time to do what you want a challenge um do your clients have the time to do some of the steps that are required

Ben Moorsom: some do. some see the the long-term you know benefits and investments the regardless i mean there we've had some very short runway projects you know two months type initiatives where what we do then is we bring all of our learnings to date and this is why partly why i'm not afraid to put out the book because i just know you know how its experience we have the experience right so we can bring that to do a rapid program that needs to happen and know that it's already going to be more effective because of our learnings and our experience and and even things that we've pre-designed and and our methodologies i think it's the responsibility of anybody that hopes to resonate with an audience to understand what stands in the way of that connection or that resonance to understand the barriers and that when you actually do understand what stands in the way that things like my you know how we mind wander simple things the the our ability to pay attention versus you know lose attention um you know how important mood is to the outcomes of things i think once we understand that you will never see an audience the same way again again and then i will feel like my goal has been achieved with this book that we will make people more empathetic and that's the word that you know i remember in 92 is i had empathy for the audience i felt you know that it was so unfair what companies were doing just carpet bombing audiences and then there had to be a better way and this you know is a way for me to help people understand and do a favor to all the audiences around the world

Jim Allan: it's a better way. engagement decoded is the name of the book it's yeah so where where can you get this where can you if you book where can you get it yeah

Ben Moorsom: so a good question that's a good question we're um releasing it on amazon so it'll be fully accessible there will be also an audiobook uh shortly thereafter um and actually a hardcover

Jim Allan: are you narrating the audiobook

Ben Moorsom:i'm narrating so you're right reading the whole thing i'm reading the whole thing

Jim Allan: that's a lot of work

Ben Moorsom: well you know it kind of has to go in line with our authenticity principle right because is a lot there is a lot of personal stuff in there and i figure i need to invest in in doing that so i'll do that

Jim Allan: well it's an interesting read uh very provocative and again you're giving away all your secrets well we'll we'll

Ben Moorsom: we'll redact we'll put a lot of redactions

Jim Allan: well how do you redact a redact an audiobook that's exactly it

Ben Moorsom: just beeps

Jim Allan: well hey thanks for good luck with the book

Ben Moorsom: thanks jim appreciate it look forward to it